domapi license issues (fwd)

[Christian Stocker]

Hi

Below is the answer of Darin from domapi about its license.
I'm still not really satisfied with it. But maybe we can figure out
something with darin.

I'm wondering about your opinion? Should we include domapi in BXE even if
it stays at this license, or should we search for/write something else?

The license is readable here:

http://www.domapi.com/agree.cfm?thefile=domapi_301_Standard.zip

and the "Registred User Feature" here:

http://www.domapi.com/aboutMembers.cfm

chegu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:57:47 -0800
From: Darin Kadrioski <***@domapi.com>
To: Christian Stocker <***@bitflux.ch>
Subject: RE: domapi license issues

Thanks for all your kind words!

"Can I redistribute domapi with bxe or do the others have to get it
from your site"

Definitely yes, please do! All that I ask is that you provide some sort
of acknowledgement either in your splashscreen, about box or what have
you, to help publicize it's usage.

"Am I allowed to change your code and redistribute it as complete
package (within bxe)"

Strictly speaking, no, the license doesn't allow this. But... There is
a way around it. DomAPI is designed so that any object can be extended
or functionality overwritten via external files. What most people do is
create their own files that contain their changes and then load them
after the Library has loaded. For instance, if you didn't like the way
DomAPI handles onmouseover for buttons, you could simply declare your
own function that would then automatically overwrite the existing one:
core.comps.button.onmouseover = function(){ ... };

Similarly, you can extend components and objects without editing the
existing source files:
core.comps.button.myNewFunc = function(){ ... };

You could place these functions in your own js file and load it in
using:
core.loadUnit('../myExtensions.js');

"But if I understand that correctly, we could not redistibute this code
to our developers and more importantly not take beta code"

That is incorrect, your donation of $40 or more entitles you to download
the code and use throughout your organization. You are not required to
donate once for every developer. Registering is the only way you can
obtain the uncompressed code.

"Or would you consider to change it, if we would pay you some amount of

money?"
I've had a few people propose that I sell less-restrictive licenses to
organizations that need it. I am still mulling this over and trying to
come up with both the license and fee levels. I am completely open to
any suggestions you may have.

"but let me say one more thing, no matter which license domapi will
have in the future and if we are using it, we will certainly contribute
back as much as we can and as much as it makes sense"

This is greatly appreciated. Many people have helped with DomAPI since
it's inception. I am careful to give credit to all contributions used
wherever I can.

Take care,

----------------------------------------------
Darin Kadrioski - DomAPI Creator
http://domapi.com
***@domapi.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Stocker [mailto:***@bitflux.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:03 AM
To: Darin Kadrioski
Cc: Roger Fischer
Subject: domapi license issues


Hi Darin

wow, you're very fast with finding my entry ;)

I wanted to contact you already yesterday, but my partner is out of
country till tomorrow and I wanted to discuss some stuff with him
before, but I think, it's ok, when I answer you right now.

But first, let me say, that your work really impressed me. It looks
like, it's exactly what I was looking for since a long time. It has a
lot of very useful widgets, is easy extensible and very well programmed.

What aspect of the License Agreement are you not satisfied with?

The Bitflux Editor (http://bitfluxeditor.org) ist released under the
Apache License (http://bitfluxeditor.org/home/license/), while domapi
has a more strict license. Particulary

2. You may freely modify your copy of the Library or any portion of it.
YOU MAY NOT REDISTRIBUTE your modified version of the Library, NOR MAKE
IT AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD except for use in your pages and/or
application

and

5. [...] Please note that section 2 still applies to this distribution,
and that the copy of the Library you distribute cannot be modified from
it's original form in any way

So, if we base the apache licensed bitflux editor (aka bxe) code on
domapi, we have maybe a problem. Therefore I have some questions:

- Can I redistribute domapi with bxe or do the others have to get it
from your site?

- Am I allowed to change your code and redistribute it as complete
package (within bxe)?

This are my two main questions about your license.

My main issue is, since we want to be a real open source project, if
half of the code is based on some more strict license, we could "piss
off" some potential developers.

furthermore, we get only the nicely formatted code, if we pay you.
That's not a big deal for me and I'll certainly pay you something. But
if I understand that correctly, we could not redistibute this code to
our developers and more importantly not take beta code, which seems to
be only available to Registred Users and integrate it into our
"beta-code". I'm not sure about that, 'though.

So, I hope you understand my problems with your license. I can live with
it, if we can incorporate your code into our downloads/CVS and if we are
allowed to change it. Therfore I ask you, if you will ever consider to
change your license (best would be apache, but there are certainly
others, which would suit us as well). Or would you consider to change
it, if we would pay you some amount of money? (We can imagine how much
work you put into this library and I have no idea how well you're paypal
concept works ;) )

mmh, i write way too much already, but let me say one more thing, no
matter which license domapi will have in the future and if we are using
it, we will certainly contribute back as much as we can and as much as
it makes sense (a soap/xmlrpc module for example is just now in my
head..)

so long and have a nice day

chregu

[Troy Farrell]

Christian,

Thanks for looking into this so deeply. I like the BitFlux Editor and
am very impressed by it's features. I haven't done much coding with it
since I've not yet figured out the XSchema portion necessary to make it
work. I'd like to use it and when that happens, I'll be more able to
contribute.

All my knowledge in DHTML-ish programming comes from this wonderful
O'Reilly book, "Dynamic HTML: The definative guide." I have little
experience in DHTML, though that's slowly changing - my background is
server-side programming with python and perl.

Personally, I'd like to look at some other options before we commit to
what is in essence non-free software. The first one that comes to mind
is DynAPI. How does that compare?

Food for thought: KDE1 was based on Troll Tech's QT library before it
was free. KDE1 was a ground breaker that succeeded in spite of it's
non-free base. (Troll Tech eventually made QT/linux open-source, but
that's another story. I don't think Bitflux Editor has that much sway :)

Thanks.
Troy

Post by Christian Stocker
Hi
Below is the answer of Darin from domapi about its license.
I'm still not really satisfied with it. But maybe we can figure out
something with darin.
I'm wondering about your opinion? Should we include domapi in BXE even if
it stays at this license, or should we search for/write something else?
http://www.domapi.com/agree.cfm?thefile=domapi_301_Standard.zip
http://www.domapi.com/aboutMembers.cfm
chegu

[Christian Stocker]

Post by Troy Farrell
Christian,
Thanks for looking into this so deeply. I like the BitFlux Editor and
am very impressed by it's features. I haven't done much coding with it
since I've not yet figured out the XSchema portion necessary to make it
work. I'd like to use it and when that happens, I'll be more able to
contribute.

We will support better Schema support in BXE-NG, one of our customer
needs more features in Schema validation, therefore we certainly
implement it anytime in the nearer future.

Post by Troy Farrell
All my knowledge in DHTML-ish programming comes from this wonderful
O'Reilly book, "Dynamic HTML: The definative guide." I have little
experience in DHTML, though that's slowly changing - my background is
server-side programming with python and perl.
Personally, I'd like to look at some other options before we commit to
what is in essence non-free software.

I agree. domapi looks like having everything I need for starting and it
would save me a lot of work at the beginning. We could use/integrate
domapi without violating their license, but it's not a free (as in
speech) library. And this could give us some problems later, or just
"piss off" some potential developers (as KDE1 did and GNOME emerged to
take your example).

Post by Troy Farrell
The first one that comes to mind is DynAPI. How does that compare?

I looked into DynAPI and domapi and domapi appealled me a little bit
more. More "official" widgets, better documentation, etc.. But if the
license of domapi stays the same (I will write another mail to domapi to
see, if I can persuade them to change it), I will look deeper into
DynAPI again. Furthermore, DynAPI is LGPL which would lead us to
"License-Hell" as well. Maybe only pre-hell, but nevertheless :)

Post by Troy Farrell
Food for thought: KDE1 was based on Troll Tech's QT library before it
was free. KDE1 was a ground breaker that succeeded in spite of it's
non-free base. (Troll Tech eventually made QT/linux open-source, but
that's another story. I don't think Bitflux Editor has that much sway :)

but on the other side, domapi is not a big company like TT ;) But it has
to happen before I start using it and not afterwards (if we find an
acceptable alternative)

chregu

[Troy Farrell]

See my comments below.

Post by Christian Stocker

Post by Troy Farrell
Christian,
Thanks for looking into this so deeply. I like the BitFlux Editor and
am very impressed by it's features. I haven't done much coding with it
since I've not yet figured out the XSchema portion necessary to make it
work. I'd like to use it and when that happens, I'll be more able to
contribute.

We will support better Schema support in BXE-NG, one of our customer
needs more features in Schema validation, therefore we certainly
implement it anytime in the nearer future.

That is certainly good news. However, I'm not waiting on better schema
support. I just need to understand what is there :) I'd have to joing
in all the other users wanting a simple example. I'm sure you're busy,
but I'd love to be able to edit this:

<page>
<para>
This is my text.
</para>
</page>


And have it displayed as

<html>
<head/>
<body>
<div contentEditable="true">
<p>
This is my text.
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

That would get me started :) As I mentionned, I understand the xsl that
I need, I just don't know how to modify XSD to make bxe work with it.

Post by Christian Stocker
I agree. domapi looks like having everything I need for starting and it
would save me a lot of work at the beginning. We could use/integrate
domapi without violating their license, but it's not a free (as in
speech) library. And this could give us some problems later, or just
"piss off" some potential developers (as KDE1 did and GNOME emerged to
take your example).

With KDE/Gnome, we got 2 good things :) I'm not sure the same would
happen in this case.

Post by Christian Stocker
I looked into DynAPI and domapi and domapi appealled me a little bit
more. More "official" widgets, better documentation, etc.. But if the
license of domapi stays the same (I will write another mail to domapi to
see, if I can persuade them to change it), I will look deeper into
DynAPI again. Furthermore, DynAPI is LGPL which would lead us to
"License-Hell" as well. Maybe only pre-hell, but nevertheless :)

Well, with DynAPI, we'd only have to distribute changes to DynAPI under
LGPL, with the rest of the code under the Apache license. Still, I
don't know enough about DHTML to make these decisions. I'll follow your
lead...

Post by Christian Stocker

Post by Troy Farrell
Food for thought: KDE1 was based on Troll Tech's QT library before it
was free. KDE1 was a ground breaker that succeeded in spite of it's
non-free base. (Troll Tech eventually made QT/linux open-source, but
that's another story. I don't think Bitflux Editor has that much sway :)

but on the other side, domapi is not a big company like TT ;) But it has
to happen before I start using it and not afterwards (if we find an
acceptable alternative)

Sounds like a plan. Keep us posted.

Troy

[Christian Stocker]

Hi Troy

I should have some time this weekend to write a very little tutorial about
how to get the simplest possible example to work with bxe :)

Watch this space.

chregu

Post by Troy Farrell
See my comments below.

Post by Christian Stocker

Post by Troy Farrell
Christian,
Thanks for looking into this so deeply. I like the BitFlux Editor and
am very impressed by it's features. I haven't done much coding with it
since I've not yet figured out the XSchema portion necessary to make it
work. I'd like to use it and when that happens, I'll be more able to
contribute.

We will support better Schema support in BXE-NG, one of our customer
needs more features in Schema validation, therefore we certainly
implement it anytime in the nearer future.

That is certainly good news. However, I'm not waiting on better schema
support. I just need to understand what is there :) I'd have to joing
in all the other users wanting a simple example. I'm sure you're busy,
<page>
<para>
This is my text.
</para>
</page>
And have it displayed as
<html>
<head/>
<body>
<div contentEditable="true">
<p>
This is my text.
</p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
That would get me started :) As I mentionned, I understand the xsl that
I need, I just don't know how to modify XSD to make bxe work with it.

Post by Christian Stocker
I agree. domapi looks like having everything I need for starting and it
would save me a lot of work at the beginning. We could use/integrate
domapi without violating their license, but it's not a free (as in
speech) library. And this could give us some problems later, or just
"piss off" some potential developers (as KDE1 did and GNOME emerged to
take your example).

With KDE/Gnome, we got 2 good things :) I'm not sure the same would
happen in this case.

Post by Christian Stocker
I looked into DynAPI and domapi and domapi appealled me a little bit
more. More "official" widgets, better documentation, etc.. But if the
license of domapi stays the same (I will write another mail to domapi to
see, if I can persuade them to change it), I will look deeper into
DynAPI again. Furthermore, DynAPI is LGPL which would lead us to
"License-Hell" as well. Maybe only pre-hell, but nevertheless :)

Well, with DynAPI, we'd only have to distribute changes to DynAPI under
LGPL, with the rest of the code under the Apache license. Still, I
don't know enough about DHTML to make these decisions. I'll follow your
lead...

Post by Christian Stocker

Post by Troy Farrell
Food for thought: KDE1 was based on Troll Tech's QT library before it
was free. KDE1 was a ground breaker that succeeded in spite of it's
non-free base. (Troll Tech eventually made QT/linux open-source, but
that's another story. I don't think Bitflux Editor has that much sway :)

but on the other side, domapi is not a big company like TT ;) But it has
to happen before I start using it and not afterwards (if we find an
acceptable alternative)

Sounds like a plan. Keep us posted.
Troy

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pho...+41 43 317 9984 www...http://blog.bitflux.ch
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